F15 vs MiG29

There is probably no better adversary to F15 than a MiG29. Both the aircrafts were designed after the MiG25 and both have similarity. F15 has a record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat while MiG29s have been shot down several times including F15 kill of MiG29 during the 1991 Desert Storm operation/Gulf war.

So is the F15 the ultimate killer of its time or MiG29 did not have a fair chance. Would IAF MiG29s vs USAF F15 had better results for MiG29 or is MiG29 a plane which will always be a second to F15.

I think MiG29 also needs its place. In gulf war as u mentioned Nalin, the Iraqi MiG29s were against combined military might of 27 countries. The first night of attack, their ground Radars were being bomber, the sky was filled with Enemy aircrafts and it was perhaps one against many. And jamming.. the MiG29 pilot would have been out numbered and out gunned.

In the hands of our air force, I think they would make a contemporary fighter. IAF pilots are better trained also. The aircraft has many advanced avionics of its time. Its rugged and fierce.

F15 vs MiG29. Both aircrafts are good.

MiG29:
Better rate of turn.
Easy maintainance at war front.
Can take off from rough fields.
Had a helmet mounted queuing system which would give a very high close range lock.
Optical sensor to gauge aircraft in close dog fights.


F15:
Faster.
More acceleration too (i think so)
Has had a very successful record of shooting down enemy aircrafts from long range. One of the kills was the MiG29 in the 1st Gulf war.
Better cockpit visibility.

I'm not too sure of the acceleration part !

umm...shouldn't the comparison be between the F-16 and Mig-29 or F-15 and Su-27 ??

F-15 has superior avionics and Radar, the Silent eagle is even more deadlier.

Anup wrote:umm...shouldn't the comparison be between the F-16 and Mig-29 or F-15 and Su-27 ??

F15 and MiG29 are air superiority fighters while F16 is not. Even USAF prefers F15 for AA to F16. If you look at desert storm, F16s were used more for AG and F15 for AA. People do argue that F16 is better than F15 in AA, but there is no proof of that. Had it been the case then Israeli and many other countries would have not bought the eagle.

Nalin Bakshi wrote:

Anup wrote:umm...shouldn't the comparison be between the F-16 and Mig-29 or F-15 and Su-27 ??

F15 and MiG29 are air superiority fighters while F16 is not. Even USAF prefers F15 for AA to F16. If you look at desert storm, F16s were used more for AG and F15 for AA. People do argue that F16 is better than F15 in AA, but there is no proof of that. Had it been the case then Israeli and many other countries would have not bought the eagle.

It's more political . F-15s were acquired with much resistance and expense which the US congress wasn't very happy with , they literally pushed the low-cost F-16 down their throats , while the USAF would have preferred more F-15s . To prevent dilution of the F-15 to A-G roles, they piled the mud-pounding role to F-16s , much to the dismay of one of key people behind it - John Boyd , who wanted a very light , simple day fighter . While air superiority does involve loiter/range and radar/BVR missiles that make the F-15 a better air superiority plane , the F-16 too was intended as a pure AA fighter only . F-16 is better than F-15 WVR but not BVR which agains is moot due to the acclaimed RCS for the F-16 is said to be low and radar detection ranges tend to be much less impressive , but like most cases pilot skills are very crucial . Israel buying F-15s is not a pointer to it's superiority over F-16 , rather it implies the need for more sophisticated BVR platform and range/ordnance - the F-15 can carry 8 AMRAAMs with 3 tanks, the F-16 can carry 6 , and the F-16 is slower. Though ironically , the F-15 did become a mud-pounder with the E version . Israel has used F-15s to drop dumb bombs though - like I said , probably because of the F-16s shorter range .

Well IAF used F16 and F15 in the famous attack on Iraqi nuke plant. In that mission, F15s were to protect the F16 against any air threat. It was the F16s which went all the way to Iraq and dropped bombs on Iraq's nuke facility while F15 turned back when they entered Iraq. So F16 did go a long way.

I am not saying that F15 has less range, I am saying that f16s can also go far, but yes, speed is an issue. Also as you said Ricci, F15 carries 3 big fuel tanks too.

Coming back to the topic. How can one say which fighter is better?

I was referring to this :

Bombing of the PLO headquarters in Tunis

On October 1 1985, In response to a PLO terrorist attack which murdered three Israeli civilians in Cyprus, the Israeli air force carried out Operation Wooden Leg. The strike involved the bombing of PLO Headquarters in Tunis, Tunisia, by F-15 Eagles. This was the longest combat mission ever undertaken by the IAF, a stretch of 2,300 kilometers, involving in-flight refueling by an IAF Boeing 707. As a result, PLO headquarters and barracks were either destroyed or damaged.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force

Today military systems are so integrated that comparing individual systems is moot , the Fulcrum would do better under certain circumstances , the Eagle would fare better under some other conditions .

And where all would one fare better than the other is the question.

For point defence and short range intercepts, WVR combat the MiG-29 . In a dense ECM environment , for strike escort duty , for area defence , the F-15 is better due to larger fuel capacity and 3 drop tanks , bigger better radar and ECM equipment .

As far as I know, F15 doesn't have an ECM suite, it carries pod for that. As for fuel, even the MiG29 carries drop tanks, but yes those drop tanks are of smaller capacity, but one must also remember that F15s powerful engines are guzzlers at high speed. And F15 can also fly faster than MiG29. Radar is no doubt F15s forte, that is what makes it special too.

F15's cockpit also provides better field of view than the MiG29.

Internal or external, by and large western avionics are superior . The MiG-29 can carry 3 tanks , but not only are they smaller, the two wing tanks deny the carriage of a BVR missile , which the F-15 does not lose , the wet station being a non-AAM carrying hardpoint . I'm not so sure of the top speed though, it's famed Mach 2.5+ speed is only achieved clean , I've been told the MiG-29 & Su-27 for than matter can do the same in clean configuration . Some of the published material states the MiG-29 at Mach 2.35/2450km/h with 2 R-27s and 4 R-73s , and Su-27 at Mach 2.35/2500km/h with 4 R-27s and 4 R-73s . I don't know the factual accuracy of LOMAC flight sim , but that too sees the MiG-29 clock the highest speeds among these three .

Well F15 is faster. And as for the fuel tank, if you put on 3 tanks, you loose 2 stations for missiles. But you have two more hard points for AIM7x or AIM 120.
MiG29's engine are not as powerful as those of F15.

I've read 2-3 different accounts from USAF officers stating the Mach 2.5 speed claim is achieved only in clean state . Even semi-recessed AIM-120s add some drag reducing that realistic top speed. Yes RD-33s are not so powerful , but going by paper figures , neither are the R-15s on the MiG-25 , but you know the speed it gets to. I'm guesstimating this has a lot to do with air-flow mass and exhaust velocity , which are the functions of bypass ratios and specifically the reason by turbojets outperform turbofans despite the paper .The F-4 with J-79s was clocked at Mach 2.5 , though that was for records like Streak Eagle and the P-42 , and some of the Phantom records still stand IIRC .The Phantom wasn't particularly regarded as an aerodynamic masterpiece - the triumph of thrust over aerodynamics , it was said. Have a look at the J-79 published thrust. , less than RD-33. As per my understanding, turbojets do better at high speed and high altitudes than turbofans, whereas turbofans offer a great thrust with low fuel consumption but limited to low altitude and low speed . There's more ticking in regard to top speeds that we're in on and there are many variables . Guess what, I've read Buccaneers could outrun supersonic jets in a low deck chase .