Is LCA worth the cost?

LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) from HAL India, is a lightweight multirole jet fighter being developed by India. It is a tailless,compound delta wing design powered by a single engine. The LCA programme was launched in 1983 for two primary purposes.
1. Replace the aging MiG 21.
2. Serve as the vehicle for an across-the-board advancement of India's domestic aerospace industry.



26 years into the idea, the aircraft is still under development. And the main Kaveri engine which has been scrapped by the Indian air force. The Program already cost a whooping US$1.2 billion and the aircraft is slated to cost around US$21 million. Though the aircraft packs a punch, most say its too little too late. Can the Indian government justify a huge cost and time it has taken? And is the LCA worth all this?



Cockpit:

primary aim of LCA waz to replace our MiG21's
we've put hell lot of money in LCA program
but finally we have a good fighter
with low RCS
better TWR
a good ECM suit
nd a AESA

these features r obviously better than tat of 21's


we made it

a good ECM suit
nd a AESA

AESA? Are you sure vishal?

well there r many newz of LCA being loaded with Elta EL/M2050
n i think we should go for Israeli radar


wat about Mk2 ??
y the hell we going for evaluation of engines
Eurojet is providing TVC we should go for it
wat say ? ?

well there r many newz of LCA being loaded with Elta EL/M2050
n i think we should go for Israeli radar


wat about Mk2 ??
y the hell we going for evaluation of engines
Eurojet is providing TVC we should go for it
wat say ? ?

You are going way over my head here Vishal. What the hell is an EL/M2050?

And I thought Euro Jet lacks TVC. Where did you get the info that Euro Jet has TVC? As far as I know its with the Russians and US only. Infact the Typhoon which doesn't have TVC.

Elta EL/M2052 (sorry i wrote 2050 in previous post) is a Israeli AESA radar
nd on wiki i had read tat Eurojet will provide TVC engines for LCA Mk2

In May 2009 it was announced that a global tender for Rs 3,300 Crore ($750 million)will be floated to acquire more powerful engines for the aircraft as the current General Electric F-404 engines do not produce enough thrust to enable the aircraft to carry out combat maneuvers with optimal weapons load. Eurojet Turbo and American company General Electric will be competing to supply 100 engines for the LCA. The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines meet the IAF's requirement as they generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton. It has also been said by IAF sources that the airframe will have to be designed in order to accommodate the heavier engines which is expected to take up to three-four years.While the initial batch of Tejas aircraft will be powered by the underpowered General Electric F-404 engines which generate a thrust of 80-85 kilo Newtons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#New_engine_evaluations

Actually Tejas is very cheap aircraft abd delivers way to much. The program will end up spending 2bil$ on its development and the per unit price of the Tejas Mk2 should be around 30-35mil$. So its comparable to all the MRCA competitors and is priced half the amount. Its not just technological achievement but also a Financial achievement.

The LCA is totally worth doing . We cannot forever rely on foreign sellers , globalization hasn't touched so deep yet .

I'm confident this will be a worthy successor to the MiG-21 and capable adversary for most of what out belligerent neighbours can throw at it.

The LCA has cost us a whooping USD 1.2billion. Thats not a small money and not small enough for India. After that we have been working on LCA for ages now.

Now wouldn't it be better that
1. We would have a designed just the airframe and imported the avionics and engine from abroad. We are doing this now anyway.
2. DRDO could have come out with a bit bigger frame which could be exploited further. I think the aircraft is just two small to (i) carry heavy weapons (ii) fuel load.

The airframe could have been more close to mirage, with a potential for upgrades. I don't think this small plane is going to last long in the IAF.

Nalin Bakshi wrote:The LCA has cost us a whooping USD 1.2billion. Thats not a small money and not small enough for India. After that we have been working on LCA for ages now.

Now wouldn't it be better that
1. We would have a designed just the airframe and imported the avionics and engine from abroad. We are doing this now anyway.
2. DRDO could have come out with a bit bigger frame which could be exploited further. I think the aircraft is just two small to (i) carry heavy weapons (ii) fuel load.

The airframe could have been more close to mirage, with a potential for upgrades. I don't think this small plane is going to last long in the IAF.

Firstly 1.2billion spent over a period of 20years is a very small amount for any country with GDP of 100billion$+. 40 LCA's will enter service during the next 5 years.
Its easy to criticize on the basis of past but its difficult to predict future, so statements like we should have imported avionics and other stuff are absurd. We should also note that 70% of LCA avionics are success stories were as remaining 30% are being made reality.
LCA stands for Light combat aircraft, it was meant to be small, IAF need's a light category aircraft not a medium category aircraft like Mirage.
LCA has enough hardpoints and MTOW to do all the jobs it will need to do in future. Tejas IMO will be the last 4th Gen fighter to retire form service, yes it will retire after the MRCA.

Tejas IMO will be the last 4th Gen fighter to retire form service, yes it will retire after the MRCA.

plz xplain bro
m not getting u
watz IMO

Vishal wrote:

Tejas IMO will be the last 4th Gen fighter to retire form service, yes it will retire after the MRCA.

plz xplain bro
m not getting u
watz IMO

IMO--> In my opinion


IMO LCA Tejas will retire after the MKI, MRCA and any other 4th Gen fighter with the IAF i.e. in future.

Nalin the second pic that you posted is amazing. Do we need to discuss this after that pic?

Cheers....

Thanks neeraj.
Yes, I think so.

Few of the things that I think India should have done is:
1. Don't get into creating complex parts. For instance, since engine was complex, we could have used the engines of MiG29 and saved man power and money.
2. The design: I think the aircraft is too small. we should have gone for something bigger, which could carry more weapons and was capable of design improvements. The fact that we have a plan for MCA clearly shows the lack of vision in the current LCA design. The F16 is still there and mods being done on it. I dont think the LCA would survive so long.

We should have made an aircraft with a given deadline and reality check. Today we are anyways going for imported ECM, engine and avionics. A wise decision could have been like - ok this we can make this we cannot now. So lets make LCA with x% local stuff and y% imported and later we will makes each of the Y% parts one by one.

In that sense, perhaps LCA would have been done by now.

The fact that we have a plan for MCA clearly shows the lack of vision in the current LCA design.

That statement makes no sense to me. LCA was envisaged as a Mig-21 replacement and MCA (if it ever fructifies) is a planned replacement for heavier types like Mig-27/Mirages/Mig-29 etc. Moreover DRDO or as a matter of fact any designer/manufacturer designs/manufactures what is asked for and I see no fault in Tejas concept. IMVHO Tejas will/should go Grippen NG way and contrary to many beliefs on this forum, I feel that Tejas is going to be a great success (not only in India but in exports as well).

Cheers....

The LCA is an attempt to become an independent designer/manufacturer . being the second attempt at building a fighter , things can be expected to go wrong . Yes it has imported content because we couldn't build our own stuff properly , on time or both . Look at the delays and cost escalations of the F-22 program , and the US has been building fighters since the 1930s .

In the long run , reliance on external agencies is more expensive , money wise. And by promoting local industry , look at the number of jobs we create too .

just get them built and lets replace the flying coffins...period

Rate of production should be atleast 30 aircrafts a month.

Whats the rate of Su30MKI?

Currently 14 aircrafts a year if i am not wrong. This rate was some 16-18 months ago after that there were many articles which said that rate of production has increased and all the aircrafts will manufactured by 2015-16.

Lok Sabha

A contract for procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration, along with associated role equipment, reserve engines, engine support package, engine test bed and computer based training (CBT) package from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was signed in March 2006. The total contract cost is Rs. 2701.70 crores. The specifications of the aircraft are as per the Air Service Requirements framed by the Indian Air Force. Delivery of the aircraft is expected to commence after IOC is achieved.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Pradeep Majhi in Lok Sabha today.

PK / RAJ



Source: Press Information Bureau (GOI)

Fighter aircraft Tejas clocks fastest speed during testing

In the final phase of its tests before formal commissioning, India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.

Full Article : http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Fighter-aircraft-Tejas-clocks-fastest-speed-during-testing/551536/

The article also mentions that HAL will produce Tejas at a rate of 8 birds per year during 2012-2013 period.

Cheers....

Systems for LCA, JSF

The scientist said this venture will see an advanced EW system called 'Mayawi' developed for India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that Israel plans to buy from the United States.

The EW system will feature advanced RADAR warning, RADAR jamming, and electronic combat and self defense systems. It will also have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the aircraft against RADAR guided missiles.

Its Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures will protect the aircraft against heat seeking missiles, and be paired with Common Missile Warning System.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2584

i guess the EW of LCA more advanced then chinees WE of j-10

Anything western would be superior to Chinese. The US and Europe have been at it since long.

Now back on the question, this is what LCA is today:

1. Imported engine
2. Imported Radar
3. Imported ECM

If we were to import anyway, then why didn't we do it earlier? Why make attempt on something which we are not using anyway? When Israeli's were making Lavi, they had already decided what they would import and what they would build on their own. While we wanted to make everything and today we are importing 3 important parts because India failed to produce them.

The loss I believe is that if knew our strengths and had better management, then we should have designed the frame accordingly. What I liked about Grippen is that it might not have been a great aircraft, but the airframe is something that can achieve more. One must not forget that any aircraft today is a tool to carry weapons. LCA will not be carrying heavy missiles and with limited hardpoints, this is even worse. A bit bigger aircraft, around the size of say F16 or Mirage 2000 would have been more sensible. More hardpoints, bigger engine, more fuel carrying capacity. LCA can't travel far, if you put external tanks then it can't carry more bombs. And I don't believe the wiki - where LCA is supposed to have range of 3000KM. It would have hardly of 1000KM that means turning point of 400KM. Which would mean even if u want to attack Lahore you need to fly it from Border places unlike Su30MKi which can fly all the way from Pune, drop bomb anywhere in Pak and come back.
While PAF is not our real rival, its PLAAF, how far can LCA go in to drop bombs in China? Can it ever reach Beijing? And we can't give LCA refueller support for the entire operation. There is a limit to where the tankers will fly upto after that they would be easy targets.

And what would be the cost of LCA with all these imported gadgets? USD 20 million? Or more? Lets see how many IAF buy, only then we would know how good the aircraft is. I am not anti Indian, but we can't be blind on govt projects.

Firstly the ECM not imported but a JV, Mk2 should have homegrown X-Band MMR AESA and Kaveri has achieved a lot in past couple of months when we ignored it. What you say is right we over estimated our capabilities but see today most components of the birds are ready, remaining will most probably be ready in next 5 years. Even if some don't make it onto the LCA their implication on other projects will massive. Look at China they took the Lavi and still took more them 20years to build the bird and even today many components like the engine are Russian copies. LCA's PD was done in 88 and the design was finalized in 90. Though LCA will take 25years to complete but will be major achievement because most components will be Indian origin. This will also benefit future programs like MCA. Long term gains of the project are important.

LCA is not supposed to be a deep penetrating fighter, it will act as a interceptor against the chinese and Multirole aircraft against PAK.