Is LCA worth the cost?

adding to smpratik, LCA has also given us so much exposre on how to build an aircraft. what we need to do now is improve on them. we already have kaveri engine, though not as good as Ej2000, but we have the test facility, the manufacturing facility etc. Now we can build it. we already have the infrastructure.

same goes radar. we have the necessary infrastructure in place. which means making MCA would be easier for us.

My point is not that what we have done is useless. My point is that we could have done the same thing later. Build LCA with foreign parts and then start substituting those parts with Indian parts as when they are ready.

For instance, the current LCA, which is a copy of Mirage 2000 frame, could have been built on similar size. On that, we could have probably fit a Russian engine - say that of a RD33 along with the N-109 Radar, which were used in MiG29. And we could have started reverse engineering that engine and Radar. So we would effectively would have had an LCA already service, MiG21s out of IAF. But instead we still have LCA under development. Who knows by today, we could have had LCA mk3 being tested.

SachinSharma wrote:we already have kaveri engine, though not as good as Ej2000, but we have the test facility, the manufacturing facility etc.

Correction, it's EJ200.



Cheers....

My point is not that what we have done is useless. My point is that we could have done the same thing later. Build LCA with foreign parts and then start substituting those parts with Indian parts as when they are ready.

For instance, the current LCA, which is a copy of Mirage 2000 frame, could have been built on similar size. On that, we could have probably fit a Russian engine - say that of a RD33 along with the N-109 Radar, which were used in MiG29. And we could have started reverse engineering that engine and Radar. So we would effectively would have had an LCA already service, MiG21s out of IAF. But instead we still have LCA under development. Who knows by today, we could have had LCA mk3 being tested


Nalin we r not chinees....

Killer Bird.. wrote:Nalin we r not chinees....

Let's cross breed with chinese
Excellent preposition from our point of view, though Chinese guys will repent later (after few moon days or should I say nights ). Hindi-chini bahnoi-bahnoi, will promote brother-in-law hood and all will live happily ever after.
JMTs.

Cheers....

Nalin Bakshi wrote:My point is not that what we have done is useless. My point is that we could have done the same thing later. Build LCA with foreign parts and then start substituting those parts with Indian parts as when they are ready.

For instance, the current LCA, which is a copy of Mirage 2000 frame, could have been built on similar size. On that, we could have probably fit a Russian engine - say that of a RD33 along with the N-109 Radar, which were used in MiG29. And we could have started reverse engineering that engine and Radar. So we would effectively would have had an LCA already service, MiG21s out of IAF. But instead we still have LCA under development. Who knows by today, we could have had LCA mk3 being tested.

Guess what buddy India was doing that but than the Nuke test happened which took away all the foreign support.
LCA is not a copy of Mirage, delta wing doesn't mean it is copy. Dude?????????
LCA was compared to the Mirages for reference and this was done in later phase of development.(In terms of performance)
India ki duniya may ohkad hai, so no reverse engg.
A larger LCA would have made it a Medium category fighter which was not the requirement.

neerajb wrote:
and all will live happily ever after.

Such rare incidents were only seen only in Disney movies

smpratik wrote:

neerajb wrote:
and all will live happily ever after.

Such rare incidents were only seen only in Disney movies

My motherland is calling on me and I am willing to make this supreme sacrifice

Cheers....

LOL

Tejas will prove it's worth for sure....... there should not be a second thought about it's utility
had it been useless IAF would have buried this project way before, primary role of tejas would be of securing air space and ground support to a greater extent
It's replacing MIG-21 but when it comes to role then mki is replacing it, and theater has been changed a lot too, thus comparing lca with veteran legend can't be justified.

at the end of the day "numbers do matter" and you can't make number with foreign supply, u have to have a dedicated indigenous supply line.

LCA will justify itself when it comes to taking on other 4th Generation fighters. It might be able to effectively take on the J-10, Jf-17 and others but i doubt if it can take on China's Su-30 MK2's or Pakistans upgraded F-16's.

well in any case it is not supposed to take on su-mk2 as other front line jets are there to do so

but in case it had to face then with elta and astra i feel it will be able to do so,

few things will depend on strategy too, as I feel lca won't go too deep in enemy territory, and in that case it will be facing a small number of enemy aircrafts, along with awacs support and sometimes well in friendly SAM's range so I feel confident about lca facing f-16 or mk2

in case of f-16 with elta it can knock it out as it's gonna face PAF f-16's only

chinese su's too are not that good when it comes to ew suites so that too won't be impossible however nothing can be said with confidence in this case

but being a smaller and modern a/c that too much of the airframe made up of composites, and a elta radar things looks in lca's favour,

apart from this FBW, HMS(most probably as hal has the tech) will turn the tide in it's favor

IMHO the LCA Mk-2 will give tough completion to even the Indian Su-30MKI because of its small size and stealthy features coupled with advance avionics, radar, EW and SPS suit. In a one on one fight the LCA will have a first look first kill opportunity, but still the MKI is a formidable opponent hence it shall be 50-50 chance.

can't say any thing abt mk2, at least design should come out with specifications, only then we can make any guess

but as a matter of fact, mki is will undergo upgrades by the time mk2 rolls out, so that will tilt battle in favour of mki .........again

Specifications of mk-2 are already out, so far i haven't heard of any plans of upgrading the MKI.

bijen wrote:well in any case it is not supposed to take on su-mk2 as other front line jets are there to do so

but in case it had to face then with elta and astra i feel it will be able to do so,

few things will depend on strategy too, as I feel lca won't go too deep in enemy territory, and in that case it will be facing a small number of enemy aircrafts, along with awacs support and sometimes well in friendly SAM's range so I feel confident about lca facing f-16 or mk2

in case of f-16 with elta it can knock it out as it's gonna face PAF f-16's only

chinese su's too are not that good when it comes to ew suites so that too won't be impossible however nothing can be said with confidence in this case

but being a smaller and modern a/c that too much of the airframe made up of composites, and a elta radar things looks in lca's favour,

apart from this FBW, HMS(most probably as hal has the tech) will turn the tide in it's favor

I disagree when you say that Chinese Su's are not good when it comes to EW suites. China has a long history of developing EW suites. I would say that it is in fact superior or atleast equal to the Indian one
Check out this link for the comparison
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK#Electronic_warfare

As for the LCA mk-2 being able to beat the Sukhoi-30 MKI, I have my reservations on that.
I trust the judgement of the IAF top brass and so far they have ordered only 40 MK-1's and that too under government pressure as a face saver for HAL.
I don't think replacing the engines with more powerful ones will make a difference so huge that the Mk-2 LCA goes on to beat the MKI.
As far as I have read there is not much modification in the MK-2 apart from more powerful engines, slightly changed aerodynamics , etc...
I have not been able to find any material with respect to an AESA radar for the Mk-2 either.
Nevertheless I think it can effectively help to build IAF squadron numbers, take on the Jf-17's and other such low cost aircrafts that China and Pakistan routinely churn out, but it will never be a world beater like the MKI

Anup wrote:As for the LCA mk-2 being able to beat the Sukhoi-30 MKI, I have my reservations on that.
I trust the judgement of the IAF top brass and so far they have ordered only 40 MK-1's and that too under government pressure as a face saver for HAL.
I don't think replacing the engines with more powerful ones will make a difference so huge that the Mk-2 LCA goes on to beat the MKI.
As far as I have read there is not much modification in the MK-2 apart from more powerful engines, slightly changed aerodynamics , etc...
I have not been able to find any material with respect to an AESA radar for the Mk-2 either.
Nevertheless I think it can effectively help to build IAF squadron numbers, take on the Jf-17's and other such low cost aircrafts that China and Pakistan routinely churn out, but it will never be a world beater like the MKI

I don't agree with you, according to LCA's test Pilots the LCA displayed superior maneuverability than the Mirage-2000 even with the underpowered engine, i accept that still the LCA lags behind the MKI and will remain behind the MKI even with more powerful engines. But the competition is in BVR scenario where the LCA has edge with its superior avionics, EWS, flight computers and the radar.


MMR HYBRID : Another critical technology area tackled for indigenous development by the ADA team is the Tejas' Multi-Mode Radar (MMR). It was initially planned for the LCA to use the Ericsson Microwave Systems PS-05/A I/J-band multi-function radar, which was developed by Ericsson and Ferranti Defence Systems Integration for the Saab JAS-39 Gripen. However, after examining other radars in the early 1990s, the DRDO became confident that indigenous development was possible. HAL's Hyderabad division and the LRDE were selected to jointly lead the MMR program; it is unclear exactly when the design work was initiated, but the radar development effort began in 1997.

The DRDO's Centre for Airborne Studies (CABS) is responsible for running the test programme for the MMR. Between 1996 and 1997, CABS converted the surviving HAL/HS-748M Airborne Surveillance Post (ASP) testbed into a testbed for the avionics and radar of the LCA. Known as the 'Hack', the only major structural modification besides the removal of the rotodome assembly was the addition of the LCA's nose cone in order to accommodate the MMR.

By mid-2002, development of the MMR was reported to be experiencing major delays and cost escalations. By early 2005 only the air-to-air look-up and look-down modes two very basic modes were confirmed to have been successfully tested. In May 2006 it was revealed that the performance of several modes being tested still "fell short of expectations." As a result, the ADA was reduced to running weaponisation tests with a weapon delivery pod, which is not a primary sensor, leaving critical tests on hold. Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sensor for the new radar is supposed to be EL/M-2052 AESA from Elta and the remaining item and software will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products. Varadarajan, (Director - LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar for airborne applications. And that these radars will be integrated with Tejas light combat aircraft-Mark II by 2012-13.
http://www.lca-tejas.org/avionics.html

smpratik wrote:
I don't agree with you, according to LCA's test Pilots the LCA displayed superior maneuverability than the Mirage-2000 even with the underpowered engine, i accept that still the LCA lags behind the MKI and will remain behind the MKI even with more powerful engines. But the competition is in BVR scenario where the LCA has edge with its superior avionics, EWS, flight computers and the radar.

Well you are again comparing the LCA mark-2 version which will be due in 2013-2014 with the MKI's current configuration which is unfair. From what i read there have been several problems in developing the LCA's radar and it would not be fair to say it would be better than the MKI's bars.
There is a link which says that the Mark-2 will have an indigenously developed AESA radar by 2013 but considering the LCA mark 1, IOC and FOC certificates which were due by 2009 have not been achieved, I think the Mark-2 will be delayed by a good 2 years making it possibly 2015
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10439
With regards to the EWS, i don't think the MKI's Tarang is inferior to the LCA's Mayavi. Again since the specifications of these suites are classified,any guesses would be speculation.
In fact the MKI is known for the Radar and EWS suites and i don't think the LCA can beat them in it (But i do hope that i am proved wrong
)

Actually the Radar is already delayed and yes there were problems with it, but now they are using components form the Israeli Elta-2052 which should not cause further delays. MKI's Bars radar is one of the most capable PESA (and I am not saying the best PESA) but still its multi-tasking capability is somewhat limited when compared to the Elta-2052. I speculate that the Indian MMR will be similar to the 2052. Moreover even if the MMR is not better than the Bars still the LCA would have a advantage since its RCS is less than 1m2 which is certainly less than that of MKI. Mayavi is a EWS which the Israeli's will be using on their JSF. There must be some reason for this. Tarang is a RWR not EWS, one must not forget that MKI has no internal EWS (AFAIK). Its has to carry it externally.

MKI is know for is lethal combination of maneuverability, weapons package, radar, TVC, electronic stuff and Indian Pilots siting inside it.

But the point still stands, everything imported.

Hope the package is worth it. With dragon getting agressive, we would need some birds. Probably the small size plane can take off from small strips made along the border with ease. Not to mention smaller planes can be stored easily.

By the DRDO was in news y'day for their bad bullet proof jackets. They had bent the rules in manufacturing and testing. Hope, same is not true for LCA.

Nalin Bakshi wrote:But the point still stands, everything imported.

Hope the package is worth it. With dragon getting agressive, we would need some birds. Probably the small size plane can take off from small strips made along the border with ease. Not to mention smaller planes can be stored easily.

By the DRDO was in news y'day for their bad bullet proof jackets. They had bent the rules in manufacturing and testing. Hope, same is not true for LCA.

For that purpose i.e, landing and taking off from small strips and even roads, the Gripen is most suitable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripen#Design
Since LCA is very similar to the Gripen , i don't see why they cannot do it in LCA mark-2. But India being a vast country , rather than being able to take off from 800m runaways like the Gripen, the LCA needs a bigger range so that it can fly from safe zones in south India directly to the border.

Anup wrote:the LCA needs a bigger range so that it can fly from safe zones in south India directly to the border.

I don't think it has that much range. I doubt if it has turning radius of more than 800KM.

This site mentions the range as 2000 kms which means 1000 on turn around
http://www.aviationfans.com/node/17

Surprisingly ADA and HAL website is silent on the range of the LCA