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IAF MRCA Deal

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Which among the MRCA planes do you think IAF should go for?

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IAF MRCA Deal Empty IAF MRCA Deal

Post  Nalin Bakshi Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:39 am

The Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Competition, commonly known as the MRCA Tender, is an ongoing competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs. 42,000 crore for the purchase of these aircraft (Approx. US$10.5 billion).

Six aircraft were bid for this multi-billion dollar contract, which has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever. These represent some of the latest combat aircraft being developed or fielded today.

IAF MRCA Deal 300px-India_MRCA-6


Contenders

Dassault Rafale

The Dassault Rafale is a French twin-engined delta-wing agile multi-role fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. The Rafale was brought in as the replacement for the Mirage 2000-5 that was originally a competitor for the tender,after the production lines for the Mirage closed down, as well as the entry of much more advanced aircraft into the competition.

IAF MRCA Deal Rafale_10

The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF already operates and used with great success during the Kargil War (see Operation Safed Sagar). This would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure of the IAF, which in turn will reduce cost. Moreover, being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer. Dassault claims that the Rafale has an advantage over many of the competitors because it is not subject to ITAR restrictions.

The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues as well as potential sales to Pakistan, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".

In April 2009, news reports stated the Dassault Rafale has been disqualified from the competition for not meeting minimum performance requirements after a technical evaluation. The IAF stated that there has been no disqualifiation however.


Eurofighter Typhoon

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine multi-role canard-delta strike fighter aircraft, designed and built by a consortium of European aerospace manufacturers through Eurofighter GmbH.

IAF MRCA Deal Bae

Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for every new Eurofighter.

Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper

India initially sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+ configuration aircraft. On January 17, 2008, Lockheed Martin offered a customized version of the F-16, the F-16IN Super Viper for the Indian MMRCA contract. The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft. Lockheed Martin has stated that it will be the most advanced F-16 variant developed. It will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 52s that the Pakistan Air Force has acquired.

IAF MRCA Deal F-16in-1

Lockheed Martin has described the F-16IN as “the most advanced and capable F-16 ever.” Based closely on the F-16E/F Block 60 as supplied to the UAE, the features on the F-16IN include:

* Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs) - This will give the F-16IN a combat range of 1700 km with 1500 kg weapons load.
* A Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar.[6] This is the same radar in service on the F-16 Block 60s in service in UAE.
* General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust with FADEC Controls.
* Electronic warfare suites and infra-red searching.
* Advanced all-color glass cockpit.
* Helmet-mounted cueing system.

Lockheed Martin has offered to sell India the F-35 Lightning II aircraft in the future, as replacements, if the F-16 is chosen.

However, some reports indicate that the Indian Air Force is not too interested in buying the F-16, since the Pakistan Air Force already operates the same type, and, having had exercises along with F-16s of the USAF, RSAF and other air forces. The capabilities of the F-16 appear to be similar to the Mirage 2000s that the IAF currently operates. The F-16 is also more prone to pilot errors than the Mirage 2000H, which would also work against the F-16.[26]

F/A-18F Super Hornet

The U.S. Navy operates over 340 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets (with 411 on order), and is presently the only user of the aircraft. Australia is buying 24 F/A-18Fs, and Boeing is trying to gain other contracts as well. The MMRCA contract represents a prime opportunity for U.S. defence companies to gain a foothold in the Indian defence market, which is estimated to be about US$100 billion in the next 10 years.

IAF MRCA Deal F18-super-hornet-taxiing-500x333

Initially, the Request for Information (RFI) was not issued to Boeing, which decided to field the Super Hornet. The U.S. Government allowed Boeing to participate in the RFI, and later gave permission for RFP (Request For Proposal) as well. However, any sale of aircraft will need to be approved by the U.S. Congress.

Initial reactions within the IAF were enthusiastic, although there were apprehensions of support issues in case of future sanctions. There were concern over the availability of the Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, but export of the radar has been approved by the U.S. government. The US has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.

On 24 April 2008, Boeing (through the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi) submitted their 7000-page proposal to the Ministry of Defence, before the April 28 deadline for the submission for proposals. The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model flown by the U.S. Navy and currently being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar is being offered on the aircraft. There will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.

Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet.

In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.

JAS 39 Gripen

The Saab JAS 39 Gripen (Griffin or "Gryphon") is a fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab. The aircraft is in service with the Swedish, Czech, Hungarian and the South African air forces, and has been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force.

IAF MRCA Deal Gripenb

The Gripen was one of the aircraft that the IAF sent the Request for Information. The Gripen participated at Aero India 2007, where one JAS 39C (single seater) and two JAS 39D (two-seater) variants were brought.[32] Gripen International is offering the Gripen IN, a version of the Gripen NG (Next Generation) for India's competition.[33] The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements.

Mikoyan MiG-35

The Mikoyan MiG-35 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-35) (NATO reporting name Fulcrum-F) is the production version of the latest MiG-29 and incorporates mature development of the MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-29K/KUB technology, such as glass cockpit and fly-by-wire technology. The IAF already operates 65 MiG-29s, and the Navy has ordered 16 MiG-29Ks for its aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (formerly Admiral Gorshkov).

IAF MRCA Deal Militaire_mig35

Russia unveiled the MiG-35 at Aero India 2007 in Bangalore, amid Moscow's keen interest to sell these planes to India. This was the first time that the final version of the MiG-35 was publicly displayed at an international air show, and thus, generated a great deal of interest.

Since the IAF already has maintenance and upgrade facilities for the MiG-29, this would mean that the plane could be brought into service with a minimum of expenditure on infrastructure. Added to that is Russia's willingness to give full ToT, and has provided customised versions of military equipment such as the Su-30MKI. Russia has continued to provide support for equipment in the past during international sanction. However, Russian product support, especially for the MiG-29 fleet has been inadequate.

Additionally, buying the MiG-35 would mean an almost total dependence on a single supplier for India's entire fighter fleet. Recent Russian demands for renegotiation of earlier contracts, the sale of RD-93 engines (a variant of the Klimov RD-33 that powers the Indian MiG-29s) to Pakistan for its JF-17 Thunder aircraft and concurrently supplying combat aircraft to China has also caused concern in New Delhi.


The Order is for 126 aircraft with the option to buy another 64 - 74 more. While there were reports of the direct order being increased to 200, or split between two vendors, Former Chief of Air Staff of the IAF, Air Marshal S.P. Tyagi stated during Aero India 2007 that the number would remain the same, and would be sourced from a single vendor. The first squadron would be directly supplied by the vendor, while the rest would be manufactured under license in India by HAL. He stated however, that as the bidding progressed, this could change.

The Government of India has sanctioned approximately US$10 billion (Rs. 42,000 crore), with reports that another US$2 billion might be added to this. This is indicative of the high importance of the order to the respective vendors.
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Post  Ricci Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:41 am

I vote Rafale over the rest . Being French, they'll pose less political hurdles and we still get western tech . Second in my list would be the Typhoon , as it is more expensive and still have some way to go in mud-pounding missions , but like the Rafale , it's new , will get better with refinements . Downside is we have to deal with 4 governments , and UK could submit to US pressures .

The rest are good in their own right , but they're all so 1980s ! afro

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Post  Nalin Bakshi Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:52 am

Yeah I agree. Of all the airframes, the rafale is the latest and comes from a long experience of the Mirage series. The best thing about french is that we don't to worry too much about sanction as is the case with US. Rafale can be used by both the IAF and IN, though it doesn't matter for the IAF what IN wants but I hope bureaucrats give it a thought.

Typhoon as u said could be an issue. So many vendors are always a pain.
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Post  Killer Bird.. Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:10 pm

mig-35 my 1st choice
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Post  SachinSharma Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:33 pm

Why not F16IN?

Its small, cheap, proven record and is coming with a lot of features. F16 has the best ergonomics.
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Post  Nalin Bakshi Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:59 pm

And one more question. If in case F16 or F18 is selected, would these planes be fitted with Russian missiles and vice versa?
Would we have to buy the whole lot of US weapons for these weapons? And what does the end user statement signed this year say about using US weapons on Russian planes?

There is no doubt in my mind that IAF will go for a non-Russian deal. The whole point of MMRCA is to get non russian plane in the first place. It was a deal to compliment Mirage 2000. But now since M2000 is not there it just grew to a big deal and Russians with their MiG35 made a last ditch at it.
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Post  smpratik Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:38 pm

The Russians weapons could be integrated with the American products but that is upto the Americans, first we will have to take their permission (End-user) than ask the manufacturer to integrate the weapons, now the Russian's may decline this too.


There is no such thing as Non-Russian deal, the scope has completely changed since French declined to sell the Mirage-2000, IAF now has its hands on worlds best platforms and subsystems and not to forget this is the largest defense tender in the history !!!!!!!!

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Post  Nalin Bakshi Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:26 am

And a good one too. All the planes are top of the line in the market. JAS grippen might not sound that hot, but all the others are good.

My Vote: Rafale.
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Post  Vishal Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:29 pm

my ranking

1)MiG35
2)EF typhoon
3)Rafael
4)F16IN
5)Gripen
6)F18SH

santa
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Post  Nalin Bakshi Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:48 pm

Reasons Vishal?
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Post  Vishal Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:53 pm

MiG35 isrussian (russkies r my fav)
it haz a Phazotron AESA
new OLS
comes with 3D TVC
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Post  Nalin Bakshi Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:00 pm

3D TVC won't make much difference in combat. Its good to have but certainly not a necessity.
And the AESA - is it ready? Or is it a prototype?
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Post  Shalini Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:24 pm

The US F16IN is a good option. It has been a choice of many nations. Also we would get one of the best F16s in the world. There needs to be a balance between the aircraft, its cost and the economy of the country. So, the best option seems to be F16.
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Post  Vishal Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:29 pm

F16IN is good but
i wont like to see F16 shooting F16
itz better dat MiG35 shoots Blk52's lol!
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Post  Vishal Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:31 pm

PAF already operates Blk52's
we need a air craft highly superior to 52's

F18SH will not be good for dog fights as compared to MiG35
wat say ? ? scratch
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Post  Nalin Bakshi Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:46 am

Somehow I feel that the F18 will stand a good chance in the competition. With the varied weapons it can carry, the advancement of avionics, structure and the best of all. F18SH had its first kill. An F22 Raptor in a simulated flight. I don't know if it was a publicity stunt but it has happened.

IAF MRCA Deal F18fgunf22020lz

F18 will carry an AESA RADAR and Ge414 engine might give it an extra reason to stay. F18 has had a great service record and I am ready to put my money on it. F18 can carry around 8 to 10 AIM120 missiles. The aircraft also can be bought by the Indian Navy, though it is not necessary but if Navy persists on buying advanced jets, there may be slight inclination to go with F18. That is if someone doing accounts can reason the two departments.

F18 is also in production and in service of many countries. Its supposed to be with the most active fighter in production. This is important because IAF would want the planes to start replacing the MiG21s fast.

The EuroFighter would most probably be rejected on its cost itself, while the F18 and F16 will make considerable gains on this front. Russians with the raised cost of Admiral Gorshkov, spare issues in older MiGs have disappointed the Indian Government. And one must not forget strategic partnership. Last few years have seen increased US-Indian relationship. The Red-Flag training also taught IAF how IAF planes are unable to sync with the western countries. And one more point against the MiG35 is that the IAF is looking for a partner other than Russia. Or atleast this is being presumed. Also the recent sale of engines to China and increase in military relations of Russia and China will have severe implications. One must realise that India is not just another country on the map. We are both a growing military and growing economy. And I do think that the govt will start flexing its muscles.

MiG35 might be doing good acrobats but modern war needs good AA kill from BVR, integration of systems and good A/G attack capability too.

The JAS Grippen will not be able to hold on in this competition. It is cheap and easy to maintain, but the Grippen losses on speed, maneuverability and technology. Grippen also lacks in experience which the old boys (F16, F18 and MiG35) have in plenty.
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Post  Ricci Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:54 am

Don't knock the Gripen yet. I does Mach 2 , which is faster than the Rhino , and it is quite agile too .

The Super Bug does seem like the most advanced in terms of avionics and has the widest weapons mix, but it's flight performance is lowest in the company . It has good handling , high AoA capability , but wheezy engines don't have the thrust to keep energy levels up after hard maneuvers . As per pilot accounts , range/payload is below expected levels too . If India does get most of the technology uncompromised by export caps , it does give India a good exposure to state of the art avionics and therefore help India's own tech pool . But will we get the real deal , with no strings attached , no reduced-capability equipment as an export customer who isn't even in NATO ?

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Post  smpratik Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:27 pm

Highly unlikely, US will put some caps on the SH and might even provided the tuned down version the AESA. Avionics and EW capabilities of SH are simply awesome but the EF-2000 has pretty much the same capability. I think IAF wants the Typhoon considering they are pushing for EJ-200 for LCA. According to the editor of Indian defense research wing the IAF pilots are talking about only the SH and Typhoons and it seems to me that they will ask the MoD to consider these two birds.

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Post  Nalin Bakshi Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:54 pm

considering they are pushing for EJ-200 for LCA

Are u sure about this Prateek?
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Post  smpratik Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:59 pm

Nalin Bakshi wrote:
considering they are pushing for EJ-200 for LCA

Are u sure about this Prateek?

Oh yes, read this-
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_iaf-wants-ej200-engines-for-tejas-but_1320196

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Post  Nalin Bakshi Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:07 pm

A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company.

He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."

So the F18 does have a chance. Does anyone know the price of F18E and Typhoon?
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Post  Anup Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:09 pm

The F-18 SH is in the competition only because of its functional AESA radar. Apart from that if you look at it's specifications including service ceiling and max speed it is half a generation behind the others in the competition.
Also at a time when countries like Denmark are looking to retire their F-16 fleet instead of upgrading it...why is India even considering F-16.
The Americans have basically brought junk onto the table armed with just one or two plus points.

Thats why i like the Russians more. The Russians have time and again transferred cutting edge and 100% TOT to India. They have displayed this again by their willingness to make us a partner in the FGFA / Su-PAKFA
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Post  Nalin Bakshi Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:01 pm

The F-18E and the F-18SH are state of the art. While the MiG promises to bring an AESA, they don't have an AESA. Also F-18E is said to have very low RCS, its said to be 3rd after F22 and F25. This ofcourse has been stated by US officials.

F/A-18E is under production still and would be supplied to the US Navy.

As for F16, its as old as MiG 35. The only difference is that MiG has renamed the improved MiG29 to MiG35. And MiG29s in some countries have already retired. Germany is one of them. In case of F16, the version under trial for MMRCA is F-16IN. It has a lots of advanced avionics, better engine and loads of other stuff. F16 were recently sold to UAE and PAF.

TOT: India is looking for advanced avionics more than anything else & western countries supply better avionics. This is why IAF loves Mirage and this is also the reason that Su30MKI has french, Israeli avionics.
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Post  ace_anuj Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:19 pm

The consortium that developed the Eurofighter — comprising the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain — had decided on a unique manufacturing structure. Each part of the Eurofighter is manufactured in a different country; e.g. the right wing is made in Spain, the left wing in Italy. After that, all four partners assemble their own aircraft, bringing the parts together from the plants where they are manufactured.

This EU-style compromise distributed manufacturing jobs (100,000 jobs in 400 companies) amongst the four partners, while creating a mutual dependency.

If India becomes the fifth Eurofighter partner, it will manufacture complete assemblies — say, as a random example, the front fuselage and tail fins — for every new Eurofighter across the world. That will include fighters for the air forces of the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Austria and Saudi Arabia. In addition, Switzerland, Japan, Romania, Greece and Turkey, which are currently evaluating the Eurofighter, could also be on that list.

Kicking off its India campaign in early 2008, Eurofighter had suggested that India could play a major role in the programme, even using the word, “partnership”. But that was never elaborated; only now will India unambiguously be offered a share of the manufacture. All four European partners have agreed to forgo a part of their work share to bring India in.

An order like India’s is badly needed. Earlier this year, a budget-strapped British Ministry of Defence (MoD) tried to pull out of buying its contracted share of 88 fighters from the latest batch (called Tranche 3). Eventually the UK honoured its commitments only because default would have cost London billions of Euros in penalties. The other Eurofighter partners are equally cash-strapped; all have jointly agreed to cut back on their orders for now.

In contrast to the gloom in Europe, the future in India looks rosy. EADS — Eurofighter’s major shareholder — has enjoyed notable success in penetrating the Indian market. Early this year, EADS signed a $20 million contract to help resolve persistent niggles in India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin were ruled out of that bid by Washington’s unwillingness to grant permissions (called Technical Assistance Agreements). EADS points to the LCA consultancy as a major victory that highlighted the comparative ease of doing high-tech business with Europe.

Buoyed by the LCA consultancy, EADS is now focusing on the $600 million tender — floated by the MoD on 17 July — for supplying 99 fighter engines for India’s single-engine LCA. Eurojet, an EADS subsidiary, has offered EJ200 engines, which power the twin-engine Eurofighter. The rival engine is the General Electric GE-414, which powers Eurofighter’s big rival, the twin-engine Boeing F/A-18. Getting the engine selected, both rivals believe, is a sure path towards getting the fighter selected as well.
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IAF MRCA Deal Empty Re: IAF MRCA Deal

Post  Ricci Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:27 am

Nalin Bakshi wrote:Also F-18E is said to have very low RCS, its said to be 3rd after F22 and F25. This ofcourse has been stated by US officials.

And how did they achieve it ?

The Super Hornet is a larger Hornet . The only RCS reduction features are the intakes , which are ducted to prevent reflection of radar energy , but robs engine of power by affecting airflow. What about the rest of the jet ? Rest is likely from RAM , but if RAM alone can make a stealthy jet , all arguments against Su-30 with RAM being an "AMRAAM magnet" are null.

I don't believe the stealth claims even for F-22 yet , let alone the conventional design Super Bug .

Ricci
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